L-sits for upper body?
- Thread starter mariozee
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@mariozee break it down. L-sits work the abs maintaining the body in an elevated L-shaped position, hence the name. But you need to lift your entire body weight in a rigid form, off the ground and keep it there. The lift is supplied by triceps/shoulders/chest and maintaining that position for the required time loads those particular muscle groups, especially. Abs and quads are also worked but for 20 seconds the time is too short to actually do a lot for such large muscle groups. Similar logic applies to get ups. The kinetic chain that's activated works small muscle groups (i.e. triceps, shoulders and a little bit of the chest) under quite a load. I hope this helps.
mariozee
Member
Posts: 11
Got it.
IMHO this is not suitable exercise for the workout.
In this hold you are definitely using more core strength then anything else.
You are using core strength in addition to everything else. The L-Sit exercise is in context. You do not use it in a stand-alone fashion. There is a progression of exercises in the set and there is a whole lot of science that goes into the set and its effects.
mariozee
Member
Posts: 11
Which is valid, however it shifts workout's focus dramatically.
In the end you are finishing with only 2 proper exercises for the workout's target and undertrained muscle groups.
@mariozee I need to ask here and please note asynchronous communication is always imperfect and I am not being adversarial. I am however time-constrained and because of that I always put time in what I think delivers the most benefit. So, are you asking because you really want to understand how this works or are you convinced in your opinion and need to refute what I said? Personally I am good either way. Darebee does not sell anything and we don't try to convince you otherwise if you are already convinced about something. If that's the case it really is cool. Like really. There is no problem but I will not be engaging in-depth because there is no point. If however you truly want to understand and you're asking for that reason sure, I will explain things in a little more detail.
mariozee
Member
Posts: 11
Hi sorry for the late response.
I value your time and definitely I'm not looking wasting it.
Yes I'm opinionated based on my experience and general common sense.
I was looking for a good reason to plug-in this exercise in THIS particular workout.
I read carefully what you wrote, however I did't found one for me.
Have a powerful week!
I value your time and definitely I'm not looking wasting it.
Yes I'm opinionated based on my experience and general common sense.
I was looking for a good reason to plug-in this exercise in THIS particular workout.
I read carefully what you wrote, however I did't found one for me.
Have a powerful week!
@mariozee thank you for coming back to this and your response. Based on what you said I am going to unpack this a little further not just for you but also for everyone else who sees this thread. DAREBEE is about giving you more control over what you do and empowering you to do more as you learn and grow so treat this lengthy post in that light exactly. A 30-days long strength program has to do several things: A. Supply sufficient triggers for adaptations to take place and deliver strength B. Do so in a progressive fashion over 30 days C. Supply built-in rest by lowering the intensity at intervals so those doing it have enough recovery time without stopping. Your particular observation in this thread questions (for lack of a better word) the efficacy of L-sit as an exercise that loads shoulders, chest and triceps.
On its own, performed properly this is an exercise that targets the entire body but in particular these muscles: abdominals, obliques, hip flexors, quads, triceps, forearms, scapular muscles, pecs, anterior deltoids and finally, the lats. Within the particular set of Day 13 these are muscle groups that are already targeted albeit in varying intensity by the other three exercises leading to a progressive, dynamic load best suited for triggering strength adaptations quickly.
Within the larger logic and progression arc of 30 days the choice of that particular exercise, over others to include in that set, has a logic that comes from accessibility. Before we release a program we spend up to six months and sometimes longer designing it, testing it on volunteer groups of mixed ages and abilities across the globe and fine-tuning it. We initially included a Cross-legged Hold as opposed to an L-Sit Hold on the basis that it more precisely targeted the muscle groups we want to target and eased the load on the satellite muscles that are worked because of the pose (abs and quadratus lumborum and hip flexors) but we discovered in practice that fewer people were able to do that plus the indirect long-term strength gains of changing the Cross-Legged Hold to L-Sit Hold proved to be better, hence our choice.
The motion of raising your body off the floor, i.e. your entire body weight and holding it activates virtually the same muscle groups as far as the shoulders and chest are concerned as a dip: scapular muscles, pecs, anterior deltoids. Because we don't use equipment unless the program is specifically designed for that the particular choice for us in this particular exercise came down to: what delivers what we want to target, what can most people do, what we can illustrate so that it is intuitive and requires little explanation.
I hope all this gives you a better understanding of the reason for including that particular exercise, what it targets and why we designed it this way.
On its own, performed properly this is an exercise that targets the entire body but in particular these muscles: abdominals, obliques, hip flexors, quads, triceps, forearms, scapular muscles, pecs, anterior deltoids and finally, the lats. Within the particular set of Day 13 these are muscle groups that are already targeted albeit in varying intensity by the other three exercises leading to a progressive, dynamic load best suited for triggering strength adaptations quickly.
Within the larger logic and progression arc of 30 days the choice of that particular exercise, over others to include in that set, has a logic that comes from accessibility. Before we release a program we spend up to six months and sometimes longer designing it, testing it on volunteer groups of mixed ages and abilities across the globe and fine-tuning it. We initially included a Cross-legged Hold as opposed to an L-Sit Hold on the basis that it more precisely targeted the muscle groups we want to target and eased the load on the satellite muscles that are worked because of the pose (abs and quadratus lumborum and hip flexors) but we discovered in practice that fewer people were able to do that plus the indirect long-term strength gains of changing the Cross-Legged Hold to L-Sit Hold proved to be better, hence our choice.
The motion of raising your body off the floor, i.e. your entire body weight and holding it activates virtually the same muscle groups as far as the shoulders and chest are concerned as a dip: scapular muscles, pecs, anterior deltoids. Because we don't use equipment unless the program is specifically designed for that the particular choice for us in this particular exercise came down to: what delivers what we want to target, what can most people do, what we can illustrate so that it is intuitive and requires little explanation.
I hope all this gives you a better understanding of the reason for including that particular exercise, what it targets and why we designed it this way.
@Damer when I look at the progression of exercises within each day's workout for this program, I notice two things:
1. Within the major muscle groups targeted for each day, usually the focus shifts from exercise to exercise w.r.t. the specific muscles primarily targeted. e.g.: Day 11 begins with jumping lunges, a power move that targets all the major muscles responsible for movement along the sagittal plane. Then we progress into Cossack squats which, sure, still target your quads, hamstrings, and glutes, but we're easing up on those muscle groups a bit, and in particular easing up on the calves, and shifting some of the load to the hip adductors, which don't play a major role in the first exercise.
2. The exercises within each day get easier with each progressive exercise. (More or less. For me, the second exercise is often the hardest. Which I take to be an indication that I'm not as strong in the primary muscles recruited by the second exercise as opposed to those recruited by the first.) Is the idea here to push our muscles closer to true fatigue? i.e.: at my failure point for power push-ups, I probably can still do an L-sit and definitely can still do some get-ups.
Cross-legged Hold = Scale Pose? (Or a modified Scale Pose, with simple crossed-legs instead of Lotus? Which is what I would do in place of an L-sit if my hip flexors were having none of actually getting my feet off the floor in an L-sit on a given day.)
Either this, or do an L-sit with my hands on blocks. Usually I can get off the floor with the use of blocks when I'm not quite there without them.
@Laura Rainbow Dragon I am sorry I am only now getting the time to come back to this properly. Let's take each one of your questions sequentially.
1. Strength is built through many pathways but all of them will include adaptations to one or all three of the known mechanisms for fatigue: Mechanical damage, Peripheral fatigue (usually caused by metabolite overload C. Central Nervous System (CNS) fatigue. If we are to push for true failure on any of these three the chances of you continuing the next day of the program decrease exponentially. So, we aim to create perceived fatigue and perceive failure points through either peripheral fatigue of CNS fatigue. This is why successive exercises in a single day may not be as physically demanding as the first one and successive days in a sequence may reduce the number of reps or difficulty. They still activate the desired adaptations through the accumulated stimulus sent to the muscles and the perceived load the muscles themselves experience as the program progresses.
2. Yes, Scale Pose is the term I should have used. It didn't come to me at the time.
3. An L-sit on blocks still works mostly the same muscle groups. The scapular muscles a little less so perhaps but it is not such a massive difference so it is totally acceptable.
1. Strength is built through many pathways but all of them will include adaptations to one or all three of the known mechanisms for fatigue: Mechanical damage, Peripheral fatigue (usually caused by metabolite overload C. Central Nervous System (CNS) fatigue. If we are to push for true failure on any of these three the chances of you continuing the next day of the program decrease exponentially. So, we aim to create perceived fatigue and perceive failure points through either peripheral fatigue of CNS fatigue. This is why successive exercises in a single day may not be as physically demanding as the first one and successive days in a sequence may reduce the number of reps or difficulty. They still activate the desired adaptations through the accumulated stimulus sent to the muscles and the perceived load the muscles themselves experience as the program progresses.
2. Yes, Scale Pose is the term I should have used. It didn't come to me at the time.
3. An L-sit on blocks still works mostly the same muscle groups. The scapular muscles a little less so perhaps but it is not such a massive difference so it is totally acceptable.
Thank you, @Damer
I can also achieve a full lift by switching to scale pose. But that takes too much of the work away from my hip flexors. I have had issues with hip flexor tendinopathy in the past. So I work specifically on strengthening this area. Doing an L-sit on blocks means I don't need to lift my heels quite as high (relative to my butt), but my hip flexors are still working pretty hard to get my heels off the ground. So the L-sit on blocks seems to me a better modification for my specific body and training goals than switching to scale.
Hmm... I would think the reverse is true. My butt is off the floor either way (and elevated higher than the blocks, if I'm using blocks). The difference is whether or not I can get my heels off the floor. With blocks, yes. So my arms are lifting the entire weight of my body. Without blocks, sometimes also yes, but other times no. If my heels remain on the floor, part of my body weight is resting on them. So my shoulders lift less. The blocks are meant to assist my hip flexors, not my shoulders.
I can also achieve a full lift by switching to scale pose. But that takes too much of the work away from my hip flexors. I have had issues with hip flexor tendinopathy in the past. So I work specifically on strengthening this area. Doing an L-sit on blocks means I don't need to lift my heels quite as high (relative to my butt), but my hip flexors are still working pretty hard to get my heels off the ground. So the L-sit on blocks seems to me a better modification for my specific body and training goals than switching to scale.