Full Pull - Are you working towards your first full pull-up? Share support and resources here!

[Laura Rainbow Dragon]

The initiation of this thread was inspired by @angeleyz21 's post in the Feedback Forum on this topic, and additional points made in that thread by @HellYeah and @EnbyFitness .

I think working towards a full, unassisted pull-up is a goal many of us here have. It's a big goal! And the journey towards it can be long and take a variety of different forms for different people. There are many great resources on DAREBEE to help us all work towards our first full pull-up. But finding them all may be a task as daunting as that elusive first pull-up itself. Hence this thread.

My goals here are twofold:

1. to pull together a comprehensive listing of the main resources on DAREBEE to help us achieve our first full pull, along with some guidance on how to use them.
2. to provide a space where Bees working towards their first full pull can gather together to share inspiration and ideas and to cheer on one another's progress.

To this end, I will post 5 replies to this initial post:

1. DAREBEE Pull-Up Challenges
2. DAREBEE Pull-Up Workouts
3. DAREBEE Pull-Up Programs
4. Other DAREBEE Pull-Up Resources
5. Offsite Resources

EDIT: The above replies have been created, and I've posted my initial thoughts and findings in most of them. Please chime in with your own ideas, and I will edit the appropriate posts as needed. Also: if you are on your own Journey to Full Pull, please join this thread so we can all share ideas and cheer one another on. (I need to step out for a bit to get some other work done. I'll post my own current progress soon.)

 

[Laura Rainbow Dragon]

DAREBEE Pull-Up Challenges

Hanging Challenge Progression:

Dead Hang​

Active Hang - not an official DAREBEE Challenge at present, but perhaps helpful if one has mastered the dead hang but cannot yet hold a flexed hang for the lengths of time needed for the Flex Hang Challenge. I think there would be value in training holds at various heights, particularly if there are points on the path one finds especially challenging. (@HellYeah would you like to weigh in here?)​

Flexed Hang​

​

Pull-Ups Challenges - this link filters the database for Challenges which focus on pull-ups. These all include full pull-ups. But one could certainly work through the challenges using assistance--either in the form of a resistance band, or a pull-up machine with an assistive weight stack, if one has access to such tools.

Upper Body Challenges - this link filters the database for Challenges which focus on upper body strengthening in general. You'll find chest and triceps work here, as well as back and biceps. But there is a much greater variety of exercises represented than in the Challenges which specifically include pull-ups, including many more beginner-friendly options. (You can filter this list further by difficulty level in the filter menu.) All of this work is helpful in the Journey to Full Pull. The most important thing is to do something. So pick a challenge that's at an appropriate level for where you're at now, and give it a try!

Power Grip Challenge - a great add-on specifically for strengthening one's grip. But holding one's arms overhead during these exercises helps to strengthen our backs too.

 

[Laura Rainbow Dragon]

DAREBEE Pull-Up Workouts

There are a lot! Any workout that focuses on strengthening one's back and/or biceps is going to help us on our Journey to Full Pull. Grip strengthening work helps too. I'm not going to list every individual workout in the database that would apply here. (There are length limits to forum posts!) But I will list the main resources, along with suggestions for specific workouts individual Bees have found particularly helpful.

First Pull-Up Workouts Collection - This is a great place to start! Eighteen individual workouts that all focus on key areas we need to strengthen in order to achieve a Full Pull. Some of these workouts can be done with bodyweight only. Many of them utilize dumbbells. A few require bars for dips, rows, and/or hanging.

 

[Laura Rainbow Dragon]

DAREBEE Pull-Up Programs

In truth, most of DAREBEE's Programs will help on the Journey to Full Pull. My best suggestion is to load the Program Filter and then filter for the Difficulty Level that is appropriate to where you're at currently in your fitness journey. From there one can further filter for program type, such as programs specifically focused on strength training.

But don't exclude the other training type categories. All of those hooks, elbow & hand strikes, and punches we throw in combat programs are excellent exercises for strengthening the upper body, including all of the muscles we need to recruit to achieve a full pull-up. (Not feeling it? Check out DAREBEE's Guide to Punching to help you get the most out of this powerful exercise.) Mixing in combat training with exercises we perhaps more traditionally envision when we think of calisthenics can provide welcome and helpful variety to a long-term training journey.

The RPG Fitness programs will show up on a search for strength-focused programs too. But most of the interval training programs do not, yet they all include great upper body strengthening work too. Even the cardio and running programs include some upper body strengthening work (all of that arm waving we do in jumping jacks and their variations absolutely strengthens our backs!) So don't discount these programs--especially if you're at an earlier stage in your Journey to Full Pull, and strength-focused programs have too high a volume of upper body work for where you're at right now.

Don't neglect the add-on programs either. Many of these won't show up if you filter for other program types, but they still include good back and biceps focused work. Back and Core is the program you'll find here most specifically focused on back and biceps work, and it's a great one! But there is some back & biceps in Epic Five, in Unbound, and in the yoga programs too (including Zen). (It's light. But it's there. And our primary key to success is to choose a training level that's appropriate for where we're at right now so that we train consistently and continue to progress.)

The DAREBEE Programs that include actual pull-ups are:

Spartan Trials (currently Difficulty Level 3--I'll update this if it changes with the currently in-progress updates)
30 Days of Strength (currently Difficulty Level 4--I'll update this if it changes with the currently in-progress updates)
Primal Strength (currently Difficulty Level 5--I'll update this if it changes with the currently in-progress updates)

All of these programs call for full pull-ups within the first three days of the program. But just as we can modify workouts that call for push-ups to do them at a level that's appropriate for us (kneeling, incline, wall, etc.) we can modify workouts that call for pull-ups to make them accessible to those of us who don't yet have a full pull. Spartan Trials specifically presents dumbbell work to do in place of the pull-ups. For 30 Days of Strength and Primal Strength, the pull-ups can be substituted with assisted pull-ups and/or rows. For anyone looking for a structured DAREBEE Program to follow on their Journey to Full Pull, it would certainly be possible to work through any of these programs multiple times, starting with Spartan Trials' dumbbells options on the first go-through, then progressing to rows, and then assisted pull-ups (with progressively decreasing amounts of assistance) until the coveted Full Pull is finally achieved.

 

[Laura Rainbow Dragon]

Other DAREBEE Pull-Up Resources

DAREBEE Pull-Ups Guide - Lots of great info here on pull-up technique, exercise progressions, muscles to train, and suggested exercises for training them.

Pull Yourself Together - A community thread initiated by @HellYeah . This is a DAREBEE team challenge in which all Bees who do pull-ups--or exercises working towards a pull-up--come together to track our collective progress. Many on the Pull-Up Team are already doing full pull-ups. But you are welcome to join if you are not. Exercises in the progression to a full pull, such as hangs, rows, and reverse flys count too!

 

[Laura Rainbow Dragon]

Offsite Pull-Up Resources - to be fleshed out soon.

 

[Montserrat]

Very inspiring, this!

 

[Laura Rainbow Dragon]

I have had my own eye on a full pull for many years. But I have not trained consistently towards achieving one.

Back when I had a gym membership I had access to a pull-up machine with an assistive weight stack. This was my favourite method of working towards my pull-up, and the one I found easiest to do consistently. I was using the machine three days a week at one point, doing sets of 10 standard grip, wide grip, and parallel grip pull-ups each time, and managed to reduce the amount of assistance I required by I think 20 lbs. during that time. Then I started teaching fitness classes, and was asked to take on more and more classes, until teaching took up pretty much all of my time at the club, and I didn't use the weight room at all anymore.

I've not had a gym membership for ~ 18 years at this point. I did live in a neighbourhood that had an outdoor fit park, with pull-up bars, for most of those years. But outdoor gym equipment is not accessible during the winter months in Canada. (The bars would typically be frozen for 3-4 months a year where I lived.) I did use them sometimes for dead hanging and flexed arm hanging, but not consistently.

A few years back I acquired a home pull-up bar of the type that hangs in a doorway. But I lived in a house with pocket doors. The only interior doorway that could support the pull-up bar was that leading to one of the bathrooms. So I could not leave the bar up, and the location was awkward for timing work and for working it into workouts that also included floor work, and I often got bitched at for leaving the bar up even for the few minutes between sets in the same workout.

And then life became extremely stressful for a couple of years. That was pretty crushing to my fitness plans in general.

Earlier this year I thought I would be moving into a very crowded living situation where I definitely would not have any space to hang my pull-up bar. But I had found an outdoor pull-up bar in the community and had planned to really work on my pull-ups by doing Primal Strength over the summer, doing the entire workout in the park by the bar. (I would not have had any space at all for working out indoors in the place where I was to be living.)

Well... those plans fell through. I lived through two more months of extreme stress. During which time I was physically separated from my pull-up bar. I occasionally hung from the bar in the public fit park, but only very occasionally.

And now I finally, finally, have my own space. I have plenty of space here in which to workout. (Once I finish unpacking and sorting everything I will have an entire room dedicated just to dancing and working out.) But it is a rental. So I cannot do anything about the fact that every single doorway has a fancy, super-high, super-wide wooden frame.



Yeah. My pull-up bar doesn't fit over that.
(Also: the fuzz on the above image is due to my cracked camera lens. )

So no pull-ups at home for the foreseeable future.

The closest park I have found with dedicated pull-up bars is over 4km away. There are many playgrounds with monkey bars that are closer. But grip options at such locations are often not awesome, and some may be limited access (i.e.: if they're on school grounds). There may well be fit parks closer to me than what I have discovered thus far. (The City of London web page that purports to list amenities available at the various city parks does not mention outdoor fitness equipment for either of the two parks I have found thus far that I know have them.) So the hunt for the best place to practice pull-ups here continues. Meanwhile, we're nearing the end of September. And I'm pretty de-conditioned at this point for attempting actual pull-ups--even assisted ones.

I definitely need assistance to complete a pull-up at this point! I have a resistance band appropriate for this purpose, which I can take to parks with me. But with my current efforts to set up our new home, re-build my community in this town, get my writing back on track, and otherwise settle in here in general, trying to do Primal Strength in a park on a regular basis right now would be too much. (Plus I'm really not at an appropriate conditioning level for attempting that program right now in any case.)

So I have decided to work through Power Builder for now. Power Builder includes full body strength-training exercises every other day, primarily using dumbbells. So it's easy for me to do this program at home. (I don't have the heaviest of dumbbells. But the ones I do have are heavy enough that I'll get decent benefit from the program.) I may add in one of the hanging challenges later, once I find a good location for public hanging. (LOL. I really need a different phrase for describing that!) But for now it's just Power Builder.

I am doing Power Builder 6 days per week. So it will take me 5 weeks to complete the program.
After that? I'm not sure yet.
If I stay on track as planned, I should complete Power Builder by the end of October. That may already be too late to begin a program that would require me to hang from outdoor bars. But I can likely get something set up for doing body rows at home, and substitute those for pull-ups during the winter months. We shall see.
For right now though, the plan is just to complete Power Builder over the next five weeks.

 

[EnbyFitness]

Woah. This is an amazing resource. Thank you, Laura, for compiling all of this!

You said in a different post that a pull-up program wouldn't make sense, as getting there is different for everyone. I wonder, though, if there could be a non-traditional type program that can be created that could "loop"--a seven day loop of dead-hanging until you can do so for ten seconds, and only then can you make it to the second seven-day loop.

Additionally, I wonder if the community could perhaps put together their own progression from the resources you've provided. Maybe something like:

Step 1: Dead hang and grip challenges, with three days a week dedicated to upper body exercises
Step 2: Spartan Trials with Unbound add-on
Step 3: Attempt full pull...

It's just a thought. Seriously, though, this resource is amazing, and everyone in the community should see it. It's inspired me to attempt the dead hang challenge. Thanks again!!!!

 

[Laura Rainbow Dragon]

Woah. This is an amazing resource. Thank you, Laura, for compiling all of this!

You're very welcome.

You said in a different post that a pull-up program wouldn't make sense, as getting there is different for everyone. I wonder, though, if there could be a non-traditional type program that can be created that could "loop"--a seven day loop of dead-hanging until you can do so for ten seconds, and only then can you make it to the second seven-day loop.

As well as the Programs, DAREBEE does have some Training Plans which work more like this. They're a bit hidden away. And there isn't one at present specifically designed for working towards a pull-up. But they do follow the method you describe here, of essentially following a 7-day program that each person progresses at the pace that's right for them. (The existing ones require more effort on the user's part to put together than a Program, as the Training Plans just tell you the type of workout to do each day, and leave it to you to choose the suggested type and appropriate level of workout from the database.)

A specific Program, that explicitly suggests looping as you suggest I think could work too. Many of us do this already when we see a Program or Challenge we want to try but know it will take us longer than 30 Days to get from Day 1 to Day 30. Others, I think, need the permission to do this explicitly built in.

Additionally, I wonder if the community could perhaps put together their own progression from the resources you've provided.

Yes! This is definitely a part of what I hope we can do together here!

It's inspired me to attempt the dead hang challenge.

Yeah! Good luck!

 

[JohnStrong]

First Pull-Up Workouts Collection - This is a great place to start! Eighteen individual workouts that all focus on key areas we need to strengthen in order to achieve a Full Pull. Some of these workouts can be done with bodyweight only. Many of them utilize dumbbells. A few require bars for dips, rows, and/or hanging.

Had no idea this existed, thanks! Bookmarked.

 

[Nebulus]

What worked/helped a lot for me were negative pullups (use a chair or something similar to get up to the end position on the bar and then try to really slowly lower down).
For me, on the first workouts i more or less fell down like a wet sack. But with time it became more controlled and slower. And once you can do 5 (or 10?) slow negative pullups you're ready for your first pullup.
Once you can do one pullup a good idea (imho) is to play around with "Grease the groove" (probably best to just google it in combination with pullup).
And, of course, a low bodyweight makes pullups a lot easier, but it's a very "honest" exercise as it really shows the relation of your strength to your bodyweight (w.r.t. pulling yourself up)

 

[Laura Rainbow Dragon]

What worked/helped a lot for me were negative pullups (use a chair or something similar to get up to the end position on the bar and then try to really slowly lower down).
For me, on the first workouts i more or less fell down like a wet sack.

Ah, yes. I remember this well!

But with time it became more controlled and slower. And once you can do 5 (or 10?) slow negative pullups you're ready for your first pullup.

When I had my pull-up bar at the old house, I did get to the point of being able to take a few seconds on the negative. (I don't remember the exact time of my slowest.) My second rep was always faster though. But the negative pull-ups did help me build strength, for sure.

Once you can do one pullup a good idea (imho) is to play around with "Grease the groove" (probably best to just google it in combination with pullup).

And, of course, a low bodyweight makes pullups a lot easier, but it's a very "honest" exercise as it really shows the relation of your strength to your bodyweight (w.r.t. pulling yourself up)

I'm up for losing a few pounds. But only ~ 5-7 kg. (Which will help me get back to running faster too. Which is another goal.)

I have not found a good community pull-up bar close to me yet. There are a lot of children's playgrounds near me. But their monkey bars are too close together and too close to the ground. There are some playground bars I could use for hanging. But not so much pull-ups. In one park there are rings I could use for parallel grip pull-ups. (But those are significantly easier than standard grip ones, I find.) One day soon I will try to get out to the closest adult outdoor fitness park I know of to check out the equipment there. It's not nearly as nice of a walk to get there as the routes Shelby and I usually take though. (On the other hand, it looks like it's across the road from a new Mexican grocery store that is getting good reviews. Perhaps I will cycle out there one day now that I have my bike back.)

Thank you for sharing your experiences and tips @Nebulus ! How are you "greasing your groove" these days?

 

[Laura Rainbow Dragon]

The past couple of days I have been doing some hanging from the rings in the one playground Shelby and I walk past. I've done some parallel grip hangs but also some close forward grip hangs. Mostly just dead hanging. But I was pleased to discover that I can get a couple of inches of lift from a dead hang with either grip position.

 

[Henry (thinman)]

What I recommended to someone at the gym is to get hold of the bars have top of the feet on a bench, just touching lightly, position to do proper pull-up and go. Having the feet tops on a bench or chair makes them real easy, taking some body weight away.

An old photo of me with a makeshift pull-up bar . . .

 

[Laura Rainbow Dragon]

I took a couple of weeks off from pulling exercises thanks to a twinge in my back. (A minor thing. But the last time I injured my back and didn't take time off to recover I made the injury very much worse and ended up having issues for nine years! Definitely learned my lesson there.) Now I'm ready to get back at it.

On October 9th I finally went to check out the park I'd found in an online review described as London's "best and only dedicated calisthenics option."
Yeah... not so much. It turned out to be just another children's playground with monkey bars. These bars are at least high enough off the ground an adult could hang from them. But considering they're pretty far away from where I live, and the walk there isn't particularly nice, I likely won't go back.

Today, however, I discovered there is a brand new pull-up bar in a park Shelby and I have been visiting regularly on our walks. This is the park with the rings I have been using for parallel grip hangs/pulls and the monkey bars that are too close to the ground to hang from. Often when we go there we see a fitness trainer leading a "Mommy & Me" group. These are all moms with babies in carriages--including the trainer--who work out in the park and sometimes use the same playground equipment I've been using. Today the trainer had brought resistance bands and fastened them to the rings for assisted pull-ups.

I was using the rings when the group was getting ready to move on. When the trainer came over to retrieve her resistance bands, she asked me if I knew about the new adult fitness equipment in the same park. This is a pretty big park, and Shelby and I have not been hiking the full length of it. We've been heading back home shortly after the playground with the rings. But just a little farther north there is a setup with adult fitness equipment. The trainer thought the city was still expanding on it, but there's already a few decent things there, including: a bench for sit-ups/leg-lifts, bars for incline & decline planks/push-ups, some hand-holds that could be used for body rows, and yes, a pull-up bar!

The new fitness equipment is reportedly the result of community consultations the city did earlier this year re: revamping our neighbourhood parks. I know there was a similar consultation for a park much closer to me. Unfortunately the period during which community input was collected ended before Shelby and I moved here. So I can only hope a similar idea was requested for our neighbourhood park. But even if the facility I discovered today ends up being the closest one to us for a while, it's still a great find. It's a nice distance for Shelby's main walk of the day and a nice route to get there. I won't be able to make it out to this site every day. But I think we can go there pretty regularly.

Today I just did a few short dead hangs and some micro pulls (unassisted I can only lift myself a couple of inches at present) but everything felt good.

 

[Henry (thinman)]

I've used rings at a kids playground, also at a water playground a standing hoop that when the water is on kids run through it, it's about 5 feet high. I sometimes challenge my son to do pull-ups from a football goal (not soccer) which is 3 inch pipe and requires a really good jump to reach it.

I couldn't do pull-ups for a long time coz of a elbow tendon injury and getting back was hard, only doing one. My goal now is to do 20, so far it's 10, I usually do sets of 5. I find the best time to do pull-ups is at the end of a workout when warmed up well.

 

[Laura Rainbow Dragon]

This is the new outdoor fitness equipment in my town:



(@Henry (thinman) it's in Gibbons Park, by the Victoria Street parking lot.)

I took my resistance band today but discovered I cannot currently lift myself from a full dead hang, even using the band. So I did a couple of controlled negatives instead (5 second descent on the first, more like 3 seconds on the second). Then I did some body rows using the handholds with the gap in the middle. Also did some sit-ups and some hanging knee-ups for good measure.

 

[Henry (thinman)]

@Laura Rainbow Dragon I'll have to take a (45 minute) walk over there, thanks muchly. I'm near Thames Park where the goal post are and the rings at the kids playground.

Photo: behind us is the new tennis courts, kidz rings and goal posts.

 

[Laura Rainbow Dragon]

@Laura Rainbow Dragon I'll have to take a (45 minute) walk over there, thanks muchly. I'm near Thames Park where the goal post are and the rings at the kids playground.

Photo: behind us is the new tennis courts, kidz rings and goal posts.

I'm near Thames Park too. (Wortley Village.) I didn't find anything there useful for pull-ups. But I'll take another look.
The splash park looked to be inside the pool enclosure, where one has to pay to get in. Is it not?

The north end of Gibbons is about 4.5 km for me. So yeah, a 45 minute walk. But it's a nice walk. Just down Wortley Road and then along the TVP the whole way.

 

[Henry (thinman)]

I'm in the Wortley Village area at the Gartshore apartments on Ridout at Bruce, we walk the TVP. I go to the Horton Street 50+ Centre (B&GC) every morning to use the weight room, cost $150 for the year.

 

[Laura Rainbow Dragon]

I'm in the Wortley Village area at the Gartshore apartments on Ridout at Bruce, we walk the TVP. I go to the Horton Street 50+ Centre (B&GC) every morning to use the weight room, cost $150 for the year.

Hey! We are neighbours!
I'm on Bruce on the other side of Wortley.

We should do a DAREBEE meet-up on the Village Green, or maybe in Thames Park. I know there are other Bees in the London area, although perhaps not as close as the two of us.

 

[Henry (thinman)]

Sounds like a plan, we've likely walked past each other and not know it. We like the area coz we can walk everywhere, like today walk up to Krishna's on Dundas St, a vegetarian South Indian restaurant. We lived on Bruce and Cathcart when we move from Vancouver 1989, moved after buying a house across town and later back now for about 7 years to our apartment, has a nice indoor pool. There's also a (free) Yoga group in the social room my wife goes each Friday.

I think we'll walk up to Gibbon's this Sunday, them vertical bars will be good for pistol squats.

 

[Laura Rainbow Dragon]

them vertical bars will be good for pistol squats.

Yes! I haven't worked on my pistols in a while. But you're right. That is a capital idea!

 

[Henry (thinman)]

I've done pull-ups at the Wortley Green low kidz soccer posts but is square edge, also Greenway Park nearby has adult soccer posts and has round side bars, good for pull-ups.

You can use a table by getting under and use the edge, Australian pull-ups.

 

[Laura Rainbow Dragon]

I've done pull-ups at the Wortley Green low kidz soccer posts but is square edge, also Greenway Park nearby has adult soccer posts and has round side bars, good for pull-ups.

You can use a table by getting under and use the edge, Australian pull-ups.

Yeah. I would not be able to hold my grip on soccer goals.
There's not a lot of space in my apartment for doing body rows at any of my tables. But those are easier to do in playgrounds in any case. (Lots of low-to-the-ground horizontal bars in children's playgrounds all around here.)

 

[Henry (thinman)]

I Google mapped our route from the Village to the Gibbon's Park parking lot and is 4.8k, had to reroute coz of construction project on the East side of the river, coming back crossed Blackfriars bridge to Ridout and back home, likely around 9k total, 2 hours total time with workout.

At the workout station did 4 sets of 5 pull-ups, a couple of hanging legs to bar and with the vertical bars some pistols, next time I'll bring some gloves that have rubber coated palm.

 

[Laura Rainbow Dragon]

@Henry (thinman) one can get through Harris Park on foot. A section of the paved path is closed due to the construction. But on foot one can get around it, if you're okay with walking on the grass. (Go through the parking lot when you hit the construction fence. At the far side of the parking lot--at the base of the road that goes uphill to Ridout--you can access the grass again and get right through to Blackfriars that way.) I usually hike to the end of Wortley, then access the TVP trail network there. Cross the pedestrian bridge at the Provost and head north through Ivey, Harris, and Gibbons parks. On the way home I cross the river at the Gibbons Park bridge and come home along the west bank to Riverside, take the Kensington Bridge back to Ivey and then home the way I came from there. Garmin logs me at ~ 8.8 km round trip (including whatever moving around I do at the workout equipment).

The gloves are a good idea. I'm thinking of investing in some full-fingered weight-lifting gloves myself. They should significantly increase the length of time I'm able to use the outdoor equipment each year.

 

[Laura Rainbow Dragon]

Since discovering the outdoor fitness equipment I have switched my pull training to:

The Push & Pull Challenge (doing body rows in place of the pull-ups)


and the Flex Hang Challenge (doing active hangs this time through)


I am also doing the Better Arms and Power Grip Challenges.

These are going fairly well when I have nice weather.
With needing to use outdoor fitness equipment, however, in a park that is over 4km away from where I live, my training gets put on hold on rainy days. Which we have been having a lot of lately. Also: it will be winter here soon, which will kill outdoor bar training for me for a few months. I'm considering investing in some new home pull-up equipment to enable me to continue working on this through the winter.

 

[JohnStrong]

I'm at day 19 of this challenge and the difficulty feels like it's ramping quick!

 

[Laura Rainbow Dragon]

Yikes, @JohnStrong ! Yeah, that does look like a fast build!

I really like the Push & Pull Challenge, because it's always just doing your max. So you build at whatever speed you're able to build at.
With the Challenges that specify reps, I often find that the upper body ones build too quickly for me. But the protocol used in Push & Pull works for everyone. And it's infinitely re-usable. I'm doing body rows for the pulling days for now. But I plan to keep working with this challenge. Once I've been through once doing rows I hope I'll be strong enough for assisted pull-ups. (I may beef up my assistance band equipment too, to give me a wider and finer range of options there.)