To Forge an Ironmaiden...

TopNotch

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"Motivation is temporary. Discipline is forever."
Yes I know. And no I don't.


And you know what? Fun side note. Romance wasn't always just a love story anyhow. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romance_(prose_fiction)
Indeed. I am 'guilty' (as it were) of reading 'romances'.
This from the inside of one of my Sabatini books (written in 1928, but Sabatini floruit 1900-1950):
20241126_214150.jpg
The Tavern Knight was actually the first one I got, but who doesn't love Captain Blood? And The Sea-Hawk almost made me pine for the briney! Now, of course, these books would just be listed up "Fiction" or "Novels", but made-up stories were all 'romances'.
 

Nevetharine

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Indeed. I am 'guilty' (as it were) of reading 'romances'.
This from the inside of one of my Sabatini books (written in 1928, but Sabatini floruit 1900-1950):
View attachment 5207
The Tavern Knight was actually the first one I got, but who doesn't love Captain Blood? And The Sea-Hawk almost made me pine for the briney! Now, of course, these books would just be listed up "Fiction" or "Novels", but made-up stories were all 'romances'.
Ohh! I still have Scaramouche on my to-read list. The other book I read of him was The Suitors of Yvonne. Which is more of a love-ish story. At least, a bunch of high up political men fighting over Yvonne.

And then I read another classic, put as a romance, but was really a viking story, The Thrall of Leif the Lucky. This wasn't by Sabitini. Just saying. There's little romance in that book, or the author is very modest with it.
 

TopNotch

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Ranger from Australia
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"Motivation is temporary. Discipline is forever."
Ohh! I still have Scaramouche on my to-read list. The other book I read of him was The Suitors of Yvonne. Which is more of a love-ish story. At least, a bunch of high up political men fighting over Yvonne.

And then I read another classic, put as a romance, but was really a viking story, The Thrall of Leif the Lucky. This wasn't by Sabitini. Just saying. There's little romance in that book, or the author is very modest with it.
I haven't got them all. Suitors I've not read, nor The Nuptials, but I love all that sword fighting and the pirates and political intrigue - kind of like The Princess Bride but without the comedy!
 

Laura Rainbow Dragon

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"Striving to be the change."
And you know what? Fun side note. Romance wasn't always just a love story anyhow. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romance_(prose_fiction)
The meaning of the word has changed. (Though a literary scholar might still be inclined to use the historical meaning.)

Genres are marketing categories. They are set by publishers for the purpose of attracting the largest number of readers likely to be interested in a particular story.
 

Laura Rainbow Dragon

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"Striving to be the change."
I DO NOT write romance where the main interests dig their heels into the ground.
Don't shoot! You're the one who said you dislike the entire genre:
It's a little more than that. It's a whole effing genre that sucks.
I can only go by what you tell me!

And it could be that I've fallen into an algorithm thingy outside of it. I just have no idea how to seek out what I want besides acquiring a bunch of stuff and deleting most of them to sift out the good ones.
See my suggestions above.
 

Nevetharine

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Don't shoot! You're the one who said you dislike the entire genre:

I can only go by what you tell me!


See my suggestions above.
I'm not shooting. I was just answering your question. Alright so maybe me saying it was the whole genre was hyperbole. But it sure is a lot of it. I feel "like it's everything!", from all the stuff I've had to delete.

So many stop and go's. Get to chapter 3, nope I can see it sucks. Delete. Start another. Repeat. I'm off it for a while now. Maybe I'd rather go for straight-up contemporary fiction.

And thanks for the reminder of that group. I posted there too now. =)


Side side note: does anyone else think Goodreads reviews are mean? I mean some of the best books I've read, that have been translated into multiple languages over the world, have received 1-star reviews where people slam, spam, and blow them apart.

And these reviews may only be 3% of the whole, but a lot of them appear at the top and then there are a bunch of people who comment on them slamming the author further. Nobody seems to comment on the good reviews.

I fell into the rabbit hole this morning of searching for all my favorite books there, only to read how flat the characters were, how unbelievable the story. Sheesh.

I had three ideas about that. One, I felt for a moment that if a word I've written ever crosses the Goodreads threshold, my heart and soul will get ripped apart, stomped on, and eaten by vultures.

Two, after that I figured, well hell, if the great authors get slammed like that, I might as well throw my stuff out there too and hope I live passed three stars.

And three, maybe Goodreads is just mean. There was one comment of an author, who said he'd worked on and researched his work for fifteen years. He'd meticulously edited out every spelling error, and worked through numerous drafts. Then he posted it and had a good following. Until one faceless username came on Goodreads and threw his work to the wolves with a review, after which he lost his readership.

I felt so sorry for the person. All that time, all that work. Sure he can build it up again, but still.

I don't think I can ever give someone a one or even a two star review. Everyone puts a lot of hours and work into their books. A three-star is okay. It wasn't great, and wasn't too bad. At least it rewards the effort put in.
 

NancyTree

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I am always honest about how I experienced a book. That someone put in 15 years, doesn't necessarily mean it's a good read. I will not give someone 3 stars just for the effort. I try to stay respectful to the person though, if I'm writing a text review.
A lot of (or maybe amost all) 'best sellers' are made 'best sellers' by the publishers, by stating that on a book (even if no-one bought it yet) and doing good advertising. It doesn't say anything about quality.
But a lot of reviewers are disrespectful and a lot of reviewers are not critical at all and just follow the public opinion. Positive or negative. So I will always make up my own mind.
 

Laura Rainbow Dragon

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"Striving to be the change."
I don't review books unless I can give them 5 stars*.

For one thing, I hardly ever read books I cannot give 5 stars to. I don't have enough time to read all the books I know I will love. So why waste my time on something I'm not enjoying? My only exceptions to this rule are:
  1. If a friend wrote the book, I will read it through to the end, even if I think it's only worth 4 stars. But I don't write public reviews for such books. I would tell my friend privately what I liked about their story. I would give them constructive criticism if they asked for it. But that is it. I would not comment on their story publicly if I didn't love it.
  2. Occasionally I encounter stories that I like--right up until the ending. Which I HATE. If you screw the pooch on your ending, I'm going to end up hating your entire book. Even worse: the magnitude of my hatred will be directly proportional to how much I was enjoying it up until the point where you messed up the ending.
If I read a less-than-5-star book for the first reason, I'm not going to say so publicly because anything less than a 5-star rating hurts the book's sales. And I obviously don't want to hurt my friend's sales! They wrote a good book. Do I absolutely love it? No. But so what? It's still a good book. I want other people to read it and decide for themselves how much they like it.

If I read a less-than-5-star book for the second reason, I probably would tell my friends about the experience--because they know me and would understand why I ended up hating the book. But would it be fair of me to give a 1-star review to such a book? (I'd actually want to give it zero stars.) If I was enjoying the story enough to read it through to the end, and even enjoying it enough that the author's failure to stick the landing made me angry, this is an indication that the author actually has some serious writing chops, but either: a.) they and I simply disagree on what makes a good ending, or b.) the author wrote a good ending--and their money-grubbing publisher forced them to change it to a shitty ending because they want a sequel. These stories tend to be extremely popular ones. So I'm not so much worried about my 1-star review hurting the book's sales. But it could diminish the value of any reviews I write about stories I truly loved. (The, "Laura hated The Hunger Games? Pfft! What does she know about a good story? Obviously all of her reviews are trash!" effect.) Plus, since the reason I hated the book was it's ending, and no one wants the ending of a book spoiled in its reviews, my review wouldn't be very useful to anyone. So I don't do it.

Also: most of the time I don't even write reviews for stories I did absolutely love. I just don't have time to.

As for Goodreads: I don't read a lot of reviews on there (or anywhere, really). So I could not say what percentage of them are mean. But yes, there are definitely some shitposters on GR, just as on most other social media platforms. It's sad. But I guess some people get their kicks that way.

@Nevetharine just don't read your reviews. If you want to spend your time on the ego boost of reading 5-star reviews, that's probably fine. But definitely don't read any bad ones. (And definitely don't ever, ever respond to them!) The personal opinions of random Internet strangers are not going to make you a better writer.

* I used to. A long time ago. Since there are websites out there that dedicate themselves to backing up old Web content, I cannot say for certain that you'll never come across a negative review written by me. But on newer platforms like Goodreads I've only ever given 5-star reviews.
 

Nevetharine

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Physical Activity:


:x: TEN day 11, not comfortable moving so much yet.
:v: 20 minutes of cycling to replace TEN.
:v: EotD
:x: 5 Minutes Meditation
:v: 1.7km walking


Also, when I listen to a song with lyrics, it must be epic. 😜


Writing/Editing:


Edited Chapter 13. It was a long one. Added on about ~500 words.


This is supposed to be a novella. Now with the revising, it's grown by about 5000 words so far. There was nothing wrong with the original. But it's been a few years since I wrote it, and my writing has improved in the meantime. I suppose it's more of a full rewrite, not changing the story so much as just updating the style.


Reading:


The Oversight: 15%
The Edge of Nowhere: 11%
 

Nevetharine

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Did you write a review refuting this other person's opinion?
I did not. It's not just one person. There are many other positives reviews of course, but the negatives are *very* negative. And at the top.

I'm not actually registered on Goodreads myself. I went there to search for a link to the books I'm reading, for posting on the What Are You Reading group on Darebee. Something that'll tell them something about what the book is about.

I think, so far, that what I'm reading is pretty good. That's why the one star review surprised me. Then I searched for some books recommended by Bees, to see if they were the same. Then for others I've enjoyed. Hence me falling into the rabbit hole.

All books have bad reviews, even those by famous authors. It's just odd there because a great number of them seems to be at the top, even if they only make up like 3-5% of total reviews.
 

Laura Rainbow Dragon

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"Striving to be the change."
It's just odd there because a great number of them seems to be at the top, even if they only make up like 3-5% of total reviews.
I don't know the specifics of how GR orders reviews. But on other social media platforms (FB, for instance), if your post gets a lot of reactions and comments, it gets promoted more. These platforms want to keep you on their platform. So they push content at you that their algorithms deem "interesting". This could be why you're seeing the extremely negative reviews at the top.
 

Nevetharine

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I don't know the specifics of how GR orders reviews. But on other social media platforms (FB, for instance), if your post gets a lot of reactions and comments, it gets promoted more. These platforms want to keep you on their platform. So they push content at you that their algorithms deem "interesting". This could be why you're seeing the extremely negative reviews at the top.
They do have more comments, at least from the ten or so books I've searched. The negative reviews have like 5-15 comments beneath them of people agreeing to it, while the positives don't have any comments. Not even a one.
 

Nevetharine

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Physical Activity:

:v: TEN day 11 and day 12
:v: EotD
:x: 5 Minutes Meditation
:v: 2.5km walking

Might do some cycling later. Might.

Writing/Editing:

None so far. But I did do some worldbuilding for The Leap. That whole story is changing as well. Another major rewrite waiting. But that's next year. Maybe around March, if I'm counting all my ducks correctly.

Reading:

The Oversight: 18%
The Edge of Nowhere: 24%
 

Nevetharine

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Physical Activity:

:v: TEN day 11 and day 13
:v: EotD
:x: 5 Minutes Meditation (but went for a walking meditation)
:v: 1km walking


Writing/Editing:

1.5 chapters. Final stretch! Have the same amount left.

Reading:

The Oversight: 21%
The Edge of Nowhere: 36% (the Western is a bit more fun than The Oversight. They shoot first and check if they've got the right guy second. 😂🤦‍♀️)
 

Nevetharine

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So, in an attempt to get back the four-hour time sink I spend gaming every afternoon, because honestly, that's time I can use for writing, I moved the offending game from my computer to my external hard drive there in the dark pits of my closet.

I'm going to attempt to keep up with TEN through December. I make no promises.

Physical Activity:

:v: TEN Day 14
:v: EotD
:v: Fit December Day 1
:v: 5 Minutes Meditation
:v: 1km walking

Writing/Editing:

1 chapter, re-do.

Reading:

The Oversight: 23%
The Edge of Nowhere: 59%
 

Nevetharine

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Not online much for the next few days. I'm saving some data, in case you're all wondering why I'm not reacting to your posts. I'll catch up.

Physical Activity:

:x: TEN Day 15 (editing took priority, I'll try to do two days tomorrow)
:v: EotD (10 stacked push-ups nearly killed me)
:v: Fit December Day 2
:x: 5 Minutes Meditation

Writing/Editing:

Finished editing book one! Now it's on to Book two 😂

Reading:

The Oversight: 25%
The Edge of Nowhere: 80%
 

Nevetharine

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Sleep is a problem here. We paid two thousand bucks for a memory foam mattress and when it arrived here, it's barely 10 centimeters thick. So now it's just that stingy little thing on the base. We are hard - haha - sleepers now.

Since I'm rekindling my love of Westerns, I might imagine we're cowboys now. They'll bunk anywhere.

Physical Activity:

:v: EotD
:v: Fit December Day 3 (Throwing TEN out)
:v: 5 Minutes Meditation (managed three, hehe)

Writing/Editing:

Managed chapter 1/17.

Reading:

Exchanged The Oversight for The Long Way To A Small, Angry Planet: 6%

The Edge of Nowhere: 100%
 

Nevetharine

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:LOL:


I enjoyed that one! I hope you will too!
I'm still in the beginning, but so far it's nice! I'm still meeting everyone. I like splitting my reading time between the contemporary and the outlandish. My favorite character so far is Dr. Chef, purely because of his looks. An otter crossed with a gecko crossed with a six-legged caterpillar 😂
 

Nevetharine

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Physical Activity:

:v: EotD
:v: Fit December Day 4
:x: 5 Minutes Meditation
:v: WotD


Writing/Editing:

No editing today. This morning my half-sister asked for my sci-fi series. Even though I'll be rewriting it, she wanted to read them while she had the time. So I made the epubs, and as I checked the formatting I discovered that chapter 3 and 4 of book #1 were exactly the same. Which means somehow the actual chapter 4 got missing while I transferred it from Inkitt to a Word document.

As such, I racked up a quick 3300 words this morning, rewriting said chapter. I'm calling that progress. 😂 And spent the rest of the day reading, thank you very much.

Reading:

The Long Way To A Small, Angry Planet: 14%

Logan Family Western: 4%
 

Maegaranthelas

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"I sing and I know things"
Ooh, I haven't read that one yet, but I love Becky Chambers' writing!
I have her two Monk and Robot books, and To be taught, if fortunate.
She writes emotions so well! I only have to reread the last page of A psalm for the wild-built to make me cry happy tears,
and I needed a good cuddle after To be taught... to let the emotions go xD
 

Nevetharine

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Ooh, I haven't read that one yet, but I love Becky Chambers' writing!
I have her two Monk and Robot books, and To be taught, if fortunate.
She writes emotions so well! I only have to reread the last page of A psalm for the wild-built to make me cry happy tears,
and I needed a good cuddle after To be taught... to let the emotions go xD
This one is the first in her Wayfarer series. I think To be Taught is the second book, if I'm not mistaken. =) It's pretty nice so far
 

Nevetharine

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Blaaaaaaaaah I wish I could send you some of my 6C with rain to cool you down
Stay safe :love:
I would freeze in 6C, although it often goes below freezing here in winter. I'm a lizard. My comfy zone is 32-36°C. But yes, we are in the middle of a heatwave at high summer.

The only bad thing about the heat to me is that it makes my legs ache. And makes me tired overall. But it's not entirely unpleasant.
 

Nevetharine

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So, in my aunt's effort to get my books published, despite me telling her that nobody does it for free, she's set me up with an editor and publisher. I don't have the 15k to get my book printed and edited through them. But said editor did say she could act as a beta reader, look through my work and give me some pointers on where I can improve. Maybe I'd feel more comfortable putting a pricetag on it afterward, even self-publishing. 🤷‍♀️ So at least I may get something out of it.

Physical Activity:

:v: EotD (I can never get this right. I always have to lower one arm and then the other)
:v: Fit December Day 6
:v: 5 Minutes Meditation


Writing/Editing:

Edited Chapter 3/17

Reading:

The Long Way To A Small, Angry Planet: 28%

Logan Family Western: 18%
 

Laura Rainbow Dragon

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"Striving to be the change."
So, in my aunt's effort to get my books published, despite me telling her that nobody does it for free, she's set me up with an editor and publisher. I don't have the 15k to get my book printed and edited through them. But said editor did say she could act as a beta reader, look through my work and give me some pointers on where I can improve. Maybe I'd feel more comfortable putting a pricetag on it afterward, even self-publishing. 🤷‍♀️ So at least I may get something out of it.
A suggestion, if I may?: Please ask this editor to point you to examples of published books she has edited. Ask the publisher to point you to examples of books they have published. If you cannot find any of the books they mention in a public library, run away screaming from this publisher and do not ever, ever, EVER, give them one penny of your money! (Or your aunt's money!) If you can find their books in a public library, sign some of them out and read them and decide for yourself whether or not you think they are any good before giving your work to this editor, even to look over supposedly for free as a beta reader.

A supposedly-professional editor offering to beta read for free the work of an unknown writer stinks to high heaves of a scam! There is no way a legit pro editor has time to give free beta reads to unknown authors.

Also: do not ever, ever, EVER pay ANYONE 15K to publish a book for you! Holy crap! If your book is good enough to sell enough copies to make back that kind of money, you can convince a traditional publisher to publish it for you. Traditional publishers pay you! Money NEVER flows from writer to publisher in traditional publishing. Quite the contrary: a traditional publisher will pay you even before your book is published. (As a new writer you will almost certainly have to complete the manuscript before receiving an advance. But you still absolutely do not pay a single penny up front.)
 

Nevetharine

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A suggestion, if I may?: Please ask this editor to point you to examples of published books she has edited. Ask the publisher to point you to examples of books they have published. If you cannot find any of the books they mention in a public library, run away screaming from this publisher and do not ever, ever, EVER, give them one penny of your money! (Or your aunt's money!) If you can find their books in a public library, sign some of them out and read them and decide for yourself whether or not you think they are any good before giving your work to this editor, even to look over supposedly for free as a beta reader.

A supposedly-professional editor offering to beta read for free the work of an unknown writer stinks to high heaves of a scam! There is no way a legit pro editor has time to give free beta reads to unknown authors.

Also: do not ever, ever, EVER pay ANYONE 15K to publish a book for you! Holy crap! If your book is good enough to sell enough copies to make back that kind of money, you can convince a traditional publisher to publish it for you. Traditional publishers pay you! Money NEVER flows from writer to publisher in traditional publishing. Quite the contrary: a traditional publisher will pay you even before your book is published. (As a new writer you will almost certainly have to complete the manuscript before receiving an advance. But you still absolutely do not pay a single penny up front.)
A LOT of publishers in South Africa ask you money. A lot. For jumping through hoops to post it on Amazon. But I'll ask her
 

Laura Rainbow Dragon

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"Striving to be the change."
A LOT of publishers in South Africa ask you money. A lot. For jumping through hoops to post it on Amazon. But I'll ask her
I believe you. But those are NOT legitimate publishers.

Vanity publishers are everywhere. And they are a scam.

In traditional publishing (a model which is actually less traditional than self-publishing, but traditional publishing is what it gets called these days, so I'll go with that) the publisher pays the writer. Always, always, always, always, always. There are no exceptions to this rule.

For a new writer, the writer must write the book first. Then they must convince an editor at a traditional publishing house to buy the books rights (with or without the help of an agent--but definitely do your research if you decide to do an agent. Some of them are excellent, but many are scammers.)

Once you have an editor who has convinced their publisher to purchase rights to publish your book, you (or your agent, if you have one) negotiates with the publisher for which rights you will sell and how much and when you will be compensated for the sale of those rights. Many publishers these days are demanding huge rights grabs for very little money (especially with new writers). Which is why so many people (including many who had successful careers as traditionally published writers) are choosing to self-publish these days.

But if you are able to negotiate an agreeable rights sale with a publisher, the publisher then pays you, the author, an advance against royalties. (These days the advance for a new writer is likely to be very small. Likely less than $US5K. Maybe even $0 for a small press. Expect this. But if the advance is <$0, the "publisher" is a scam. Run away!) Often the advance will be split up into 3 parts: partial payment upon signing of the contract, partial payment upon the publisher's acceptance of the finished manuscript, and partial payment upon publication. At this point the publisher also assigns an editor to you, and you start to work with that editor to craft a mutually agreeable story.

The publisher is also responsible at this point for copy editing your final work, hiring a cover artist and designer, doing the layout, typography, assigning an ISBN#, and actually producing any physical copies of the book.

The publisher then sends your book out into the world via its distribution network. (This is the only real reason to use a traditional publisher. Their distribution potential is massively greater than yours, which means the potential for sales of your book is also much greater.) The publisher markets (or not) your book as they see fit. (Usually there isn't much marketing budget for a new author.) These days the publisher will expect the author do do some marketing as well.

Now that your book is finally out in the world, hopefully it will sell some copies. All of the money from the initial sales of your book will now go to the distributors and the publisher. Because the publisher has already paid you the author's cut of those books sales. (This is what the advance is.) Hopefully your book will sell well enough to "earn out the advance" (many don't though, so be prepared for that), at which point the author then starts to receive the agreed upon percentage of all future book sales (for the duration of their contract with that publisher).

At some point the publisher will decide to stop publishing your book. Your book is now "out of print". If you knew what you were doing when you signed the contract with the publisher, all of your rights should revert back to you soon after this happens. At which point you can then self-publish the same book yourself, or else try to find a new publisher for it.

In self-publishing, the writer may do all of the work themself. Or they may hire contractors to do certain specific jobs for them. If the writer chooses to hire contractors, then the writer is paying out of pocket for the specific services that they contract out for. But the writer chooses the contractors (including choosing which services to contract out for and which to do themself). The writer approves the contractors' work. And the writer remains the publisher of the work. If the writer then wishes to sell their published work, they will need to contract out the distribution of that work. (Technically you could, as the publisher of your own books, simply sell them out of your own garage, or the back of your car, or through your own website. But unless you are already an uber famous person, this method would not net you enough sales to pay for the garage, the car, or the hosting fees for your website. So in practice you most likely do need a distributor.) The distributor takes a cut of the sales, and everything else goes directly to the writer/publisher.

In vanity publishing, unscrupulous people take advantage of writers' desire to be published and naivety about the flow of money within the publishing industry by charging the writers a crap tonne of money, for which the vanity press then does very little work, if any at all. The vanity press doesn't care if your book is any good. The vanity press doesn't care if your book gets an appealing cover. It doesn't care if your book is widely distributed or marketed. The vanity press doesn't care if your book sells any copies at all. Because they made their money already out of the 15K you paid them up front.

Please see Writer Beware's article on Vanity, Subsidy, and Hybrid Publishers for more details. Writer Beware is an excellent website in general for learning about the fiction publishing industry, particularly in helping new writers to spot scams.
 

Nevetharine

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I believe you. But those are NOT legitimate publishers.

Vanity publishers are everywhere. And they are a scam.

In traditional publishing (a model which is actually less traditional than self-publishing, but traditional publishing is what it gets called these days, so I'll go with that) the publisher pays the writer. Always, always, always, always, always. There are no exceptions to this rule.

For a new writer, the writer must write the book first. Then they must convince an editor at a traditional publishing house to buy the books rights (with or without the help of an agent--but definitely do your research if you decide to do an agent. Some of them are excellent, but many are scammers.)

Once you have an editor who has convinced their publisher to purchase rights to publish your book, you (or your agent, if you have one) negotiates with the publisher for which rights you will sell and how much and when you will be compensated for the sale of those rights. Many publishers these days are demanding huge rights grabs for very little money (especially with new writers). Which is why so many people (including many who had successful careers as traditionally published writers) are choosing to self-publish these days.

But if you are able to negotiate an agreeable rights sale with a publisher, the publisher then pays you, the author, an advance against royalties. (These days the advance for a new writer is likely to be very small. Likely less than $US5K. Maybe even $0 for a small press. Expect this. But if the advance is <$0, the "publisher" is a scam. Run away!) Often the advance will be split up into 3 parts: partial payment upon signing of the contract, partial payment upon the publisher's acceptance of the finished manuscript, and partial payment upon publication. At this point the publisher also assigns an editor to you, and you start to work with that editor to craft a mutually agreeable story.

The publisher is also responsible at this point for copy editing your final work, hiring a cover artist and designer, doing the layout, typography, assigning an ISBN#, and actually producing any physical copies of the book.

The publisher then sends your book out into the world via its distribution network. (This is the only real reason to use a traditional publisher. Their distribution potential is massively greater than yours, which means the potential for sales of your book is also much greater.) The publisher markets (or not) your book as they see fit. (Usually there isn't much marketing budget for a new author.) These days the publisher will expect the author do do some marketing as well.

Now that your book is finally out in the world, hopefully it will sell some copies. All of the money from the initial sales of your book will now go to the distributors and the publisher. Because the publisher has already paid you the author's cut of those books sales. (This is what the advance is.) Hopefully your book will sell well enough to "earn out the advance" (many don't though, so be prepared for that), at which point the author then starts to receive the agreed upon percentage of all future book sales (for the duration of their contract with that publisher).

At some point the publisher will decide to stop publishing your book. Your book is now "out of print". If you knew what you were doing when you signed the contract with the publisher, all of your rights should revert back to you soon after this happens. At which point you can then self-publish the same book yourself, or else try to find a new publisher for it.

In self-publishing, the writer may do all of the work themself. Or they may hire contractors to do certain specific jobs for them. If the writer chooses to hire contractors, then the writer is paying out of pocket for the specific services that they contract out for. But the writer chooses the contractors (including choosing which services to contract out for and which to do themself). The writer approves the contractors' work. And the writer remains the publisher of the work. If the writer then wishes to sell their published work, they will need to contract out the distribution of that work. (Technically you could, as the publisher of your own books, simply sell them out of your own garage, or the back of your car, or through your own website. But unless you are already an uber famous person, this method would not net you enough sales to pay for the garage, the car, or the hosting fees for your website. So in practice you most likely do need a distributor.) The distributor takes a cut of the sales, and everything else goes directly to the writer/publisher.

In vanity publishing, unscrupulous people take advantage of writers' desire to be published and naivety about the flow of money within the publishing industry by charging the writers a crap tonne of money, for which the vanity press then does very little work, if any at all. The vanity press doesn't care if your book is any good. The vanity press doesn't care if your book gets an appealing cover. It doesn't care if your book is widely distributed or marketed. The vanity press doesn't care if your book sells any copies at all. Because they made their money already out of the 15K you paid them up front.

Please see Writer Beware's article on Vanity, Subsidy, and Hybrid Publishers for more details. Writer Beware is an excellent website in general for learning about the fiction publishing industry, particularly in helping new writers to spot scams.
The package she talks about is that they print 100 books for you right off the bat (after editing it for you), they market it for you, they arrange writer talks and signings in bookstores over the city, and tables where the books can be seen. The fee is once off, you keep 100% of all royalties. And most of it, according to me, would be for marketing and printing.

But it doesn't matter. Because I can't afford it. It's as far out of my orbit as Neptune.

She offered to read the book more as a beta reader to give me pointers, but nothing too deep that may be considered editing because she'd have to charge me for that.

She did say that if the story is worth it, she may try to help me improve it enough that it would have a better chance with a traditional publisher, which yes, would then be free.

She is also not the publisher. She just works for him, and part-time at that. She is a writer herself, and also a psychologist.
 

Laura Rainbow Dragon

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"Striving to be the change."
The package she talks about is that they print 100 books for you right off the bat (after editing it for you), they market it for you, they arrange writer talks and signings in bookstores over the city, and tables where the books can be seen. The fee is once off, you keep 100% of all royalties. And most of it, according to me, would be for marketing and printing.
Definitely a skeezy vanity press!

You can arrange your own book signings in local places. For free. (Call up your local library, bookshop, bookish cafe, etc. Say you are a local author, would they like you to give a reading, followed by Q&A and meet & greet. If they are at all amenable to having non-big-name authors taking up space in their place, they will say yes and say yes more happily to you than to the vanity press.)

Wider book tours are generally for authors who are already well-known. (Nobody will show up to a book signing by an unknown author. You'd just be reading to an empty room.) But if this "publisher" is arranging them, unless they are also paying for your travel costs, you cannot afford to do a book tour anyhow.

I am certain any "marketing" they do will be pretty much worthless. But it would be a good educational opportunity for you to ask them to put in writing, exactly what "marketing" they will be doing. Get a list of specific online markets. Get a list of specific print markets. Get specifications on the size of print ads. (I fully expect there won't be any, but it would be fun to ask.) Will they make posters? How big? Where will the posters be on display? Will they get your book into store endcaps and/or table displays? (ROTFLMAO. No sane publisher would fork out for this for an unknown author.) Then go and research what it would cost you to do the same marketing yourself.

Editing only has value if the editor is any good at the job (and if they're a good fit for you). Start by reading a few books they've already edited. But also look up how much it would cost you to hire a freelance editor. (Hint: it would be MUCH cheaper than what these people want to charge you.)

Printing physical books does cost money. But again: only a small fraction of the fee these people are charging. The fact that they are quoting you a price without even knowing how long your book is tells you everything you need to know about just how wildly they are overcharging for this service. But do your research. Check out what it would cost you to get POD copies of your books shipped to you/your readers from Ingram Spark, Blurb, Lulu, or another POD service of your choice.

I know you've said you won't be purchasing this vanity press' package because you cannot afford it. It's a very good thing that you will not be purchasing their package! But if you believe what they're offering would be worth 15K if you did have the money, please, please, please: read Writer Beware and do some research on the publishing industry and how much things should cost. I don't want you to get scammed out of what little money you do have!
 

Laura Rainbow Dragon

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Posts: 2,489
"Striving to be the change."
From the same website I linked above...
It absolutely can be free if you are able to do all the work yourself. Which some authors are.

Assuming you cannot (or do not want to) do all of the work yourself, the key is to contract out for only the jobs that you cannot/do not want to do and to maintain control of who you contract out to and on what terms. Do not give up control of your final product to anyone who does not have a vested interest in how well that product sells.

The publishing industry is international. I promise you there is no special "I must pay money up front to get published because I live in South Africa" rule. Some things will be harder and less profitable for you because of where you live. But you absolutely 100% do not need to use a vanity press, and it absolutely 100% would be a terrible idea for you to do so.

You mention that in the package offered by the vanity press your aunt looked into you would keep "100% of all royalties". This is a.) not true, and b.) garbage language that demonstrates either the vanity press doesn't know what they're talking about or worse: they do know, but assume you don't, so they can get away with saying whatever they want.

When you sign a contract with a traditional publisher, the terms of the contract include the exchange of certain items of value. One of the things which you give to the publisher in the contract is the exclusive right to publish your book in certain markets. These days the publisher will demand, at a minimum, exclusive world-wide English language rights to publish the book in print, digital, and audio formats. They may ask for additional rights beyond these. (Whether or not it would be worth it to you to grant them the additional rights is a complicated issue I won't go into here.) But for the sake of argument, let's say you are able to get a publishing contract in which these are the only rights you give up. This means that you, the author and holder of the copyright to the work, may not legally publish that work in English, anywhere in the world, in print, ebook, or audiobook for the duration of the contract. Nor may you legally sell the rights to do those things to any other publisher. Only the publisher you have sold these rights to can publish the book in English in these formats. In exchange for you giving this item of value (exclusive publishing rights) to the publisher, the publisher gives you (in addition to some other services) money. Usually this money is in the form of a percentage of book sales. This is what a royalty is.

In the case of a vanity press, the author pays the vanity press a crap tonne of money up front in exchange for certain goods and services which are worth only a tiny fraction of what the vanity press charges for them. With the vanity press your aunt found, one of the things you would get in exchange for your money is 100 print books. There is no "royalty" to be paid on them, because they are not the vanity press' books. They are yours, and you have (hopefully--please, please, please don't EVER sign away copyright or distribution licenses to a vanity press!) maintained the right to do with your books as you please, including selling them.

So yes, you could at this point, in theory, sell one of the books, which you now own, directly to a buyer. In which case you would keep 100% of the sale price of the book (less taxes, if you declare that you sold the book). But this money isn't a royalty. It is simply a new exchange of goods. (You traded something of value which you owned--the book--for something of value which the buyer owned--the money.)

In reality though, you're not going to be able to sell 100 books directly at no further cost to you. To sell 100 books you're going to need to rent tables at book fairs/conventions/etc. (in which case you're paying more money up front in the hope of getting your book in front of buyers) and/or you're going to need to convince book stores (and/or other distributors) to sell your book for you (in which case they would take a percentage of sales. A LARGE percentage.)

And once your initial 100 books have sold (without earning you back even a fraction of what you paid for them), you would then need to pay more money to purchase more books to keep selling them.

The reality is that, as a self-published author, the vast majority of books you sell will be ebooks. It is likely that 100% of your book sales (with the possible exception of a few family members and close friends) will be ebooks (at least in the beginning when you are unknown). You can make some good coin selling ebooks for a fraction of the price you would have to sell a print book for to make any money at all off of the print book. And few people will risk the price of a print book on an unknown author. So paying for the printing of 100 books up front--even for a fair market price--is most likely a bad idea for you. Instead: use a POD service. The POD service costs you nothing up front. The book is printed only when someone purchases it. (At which point, yes, the printing and shipping costs for that one book will be substantial.* You will need to set a high price for the book to cover them--as well as the distribution costs. Which is why nobody but your aunt will purchase the print book. But this is okay. Because you will still have an unlimited supply of ebooks you can sell, and your aunt will still get her nice shiny POD book with her niece's name on the cover. Everybody wins. And the up-front cost to you was zero.)

*This is one area where living in South Africa will cost you. Because the majority of people who will want print copies of your books are people who know you or at least meet you at an in-person event. Which means your physical books need to end up in South Africa one way or the other. The major POD services I've linked to above, I suspect, do not have facilities in South Africa. So you'd be paying for books printed elsewhere to be shipped to South Africa, which I assume is expensive. This is one area where I cannot help you with specifics. You will need to do your own research re: which POD services will ship to South Africa and at what price. You may well find that, once your books are selling well enough that you can guarantee you'll sell 100 print copies, you would be better off to pay a local shop up front to print them for you rather than go with an out-of-country POD service. (On the other hand, the technology the vanity press is using to print books is almost certainly POD. So I suspect decent POD services local to you will show up eventually--if they're not there already. You still won't get as good of a price as people in the US and UK get. But it will be better than using a vanity press.) In any case: you cannot afford to pay up front for a print run until after your books are already selling. So either find a POD service that will ship to South Africa and charge whatever ridiculous price you need to charge to not lose money on such book sales. Or just sell ebooks for now.

(Canada has this same issue re: the exorbitant price of print books here. You're not alone in that. Making money as a writer is definitely easier for people who live in the US and UK than it is for us. For this reason we pretty much need to ignore advice from authors from the US and UK when they talk about print books--whether that be how to price them, when to introduce them, the importance of them to one's overall marketing strategy, etc--because we are definitely playing at a disadvantage in this area. US and UK math re: print books does not apply to us. But there is still zero need for authors in our regions to go into debt to publish a book.)
 
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Nevetharine

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I faltered on Fit December.

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